East Meets West 120

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Roger and Tom mostly talk about the winding up of the Democratic primaries, but also take some comments and talk a tad about Revision3′s DDOS issues.

Webnet

Nothings nicer than Politician’s arguing and Denial of Service attacks with a hot cup of coffee.
Webnet

Nothings nicer than Politician’s arguing and Denial of Service attacks with a hot cup of coffee.
http://www.freehollowbooks.com/ james in nc

Felt like someone flipped on the lights in the theater when Roger lost interest at the end. Tom needs to finish the psychology / strange attractors thought on the next show. Managing to make the democratic primaries interesting was quite a feat. Wish I found the show a year ago. A mention of it on BOL a few months back got me here. Enjoying each episode. Tonights came just in time as my Ipod Video died today and I never listen to podcasts on the lappy but yours was there waiting when I fired up Itunes.
http://www.freehollowbooks.com james in nc

Felt like someone flipped on the lights in the theater when Roger lost interest at the end. Tom needs to finish the psychology / strange attractors thought on the next show. Managing to make the democratic primaries interesting was quite a feat. Wish I found the show a year ago. A mention of it on BOL a few months back got me here. Enjoying each episode. Tonights came just in time as my Ipod Video died today and I never listen to podcasts on the lappy but yours was there waiting when I fired up Itunes.
Kelly

I had hoped to write this before Epi 120 but I missed.

I know the DNC was in a bind trying to figure out what to do with Florida and Michigan. I was for fully reinstating Floridan and Michigan as well as for splitting the delegates 50/50 or in half as they like to refer to it. I watch the CNN coverage on Saturday from Noon to shortly after the final vote. For some reason I turned to my 81 year old mother and said, “I think we just saw the DNC hand the Nomination to Obama….. I was very upset the rest of the night and all day today.

I know what the DNC had to do, I understood the process they were undertaking on Saturday and I understand the process and outcome of the find vote. What I am surprised at is my reaction to the final vote, that “final” outcome. I have been doubting if we had done the right thing. I already knew who I was going to vote for regardless of Saturdays outcome. But now, I’m not sure. I have my doubts. Maybe we did something horrible wrong Saturday. Could this be another manipulate and tainted Election? I think so! A 50/50 split should have been fair to both candidates but in this case it does not appear to be so.

I’m off to bed now. No time to listen to EMW 120. I am now concerned with, what if my candidate isn’t on the ballot?? Who will I vote for?? Should I vote McCain?? Should I not vote?? Should I just write in my candidate’s name?? Maybe this year I will just write in, “You made this years Election too hard!” Or I could write in, undecided….

Back when the press was calling this campaign a horse race, it wasn’t. The press made this a horse race. Hillary was suppose to be a slam dunk for the Dems, she isn’t. Barak has sticking power. McCain won his nomination by default. It’s still no horse race. The media has manipulated us once again! Manipulated us into accepting this DNC meeting and its outcome How can we be such suckers?

I think it was the media that gave Barak the sticking power and I can’t help but feel that Barak was place in the position he now is so that, by design, would squeeze Hillary out of the race. At least that’s what it looks like to me. That’s how I feel after Saturdays CNN coverage.

I hope you will address some of all of my feelings next week. Any chance you can do a mid week show. Say, Wednesday night?

Thanks!

Kelly

P.S. I fully support Revision3 should they choose to pursue legal action against “Artist Direct/Media Defenders ” It’s time we fight back!
Kelly

I had hoped to write this before Epi 120 but I missed.

I know the DNC was in a bind trying to figure out what to do with Florida and Michigan. I was for fully reinstating Floridan and Michigan as well as for splitting the delegates 50/50 or in half as they like to refer to it. I watch the CNN coverage on Saturday from Noon to shortly after the final vote. For some reason I turned to my 81 year old mother and said, “I think we just saw the DNC hand the Nomination to Obama….. I was very upset the rest of the night and all day today.

I know what the DNC had to do, I understood the process they were undertaking on Saturday and I understand the process and outcome of the find vote. What I am surprised at is my reaction to the final vote, that “final” outcome. I have been doubting if we had done the right thing. I already knew who I was going to vote for regardless of Saturdays outcome. But now, I’m not sure. I have my doubts. Maybe we did something horrible wrong Saturday. Could this be another manipulate and tainted Election? I think so! A 50/50 split should have been fair to both candidates but in this case it does not appear to be so.

I’m off to bed now. No time to listen to EMW 120. I am now concerned with, what if my candidate isn’t on the ballot?? Who will I vote for?? Should I vote McCain?? Should I not vote?? Should I just write in my candidate’s name?? Maybe this year I will just write in, “You made this years Election too hard!” Or I could write in, undecided….

Back when the press was calling this campaign a horse race, it wasn’t. The press made this a horse race. Hillary was suppose to be a slam dunk for the Dems, she isn’t. Barak has sticking power. McCain won his nomination by default. It’s still no horse race. The media has manipulated us once again! Manipulated us into accepting this DNC meeting and its outcome How can we be such suckers?

I think it was the media that gave Barak the sticking power and I can’t help but feel that Barak was place in the position he now is so that, by design, would squeeze Hillary out of the race. At least that’s what it looks like to me. That’s how I feel after Saturdays CNN coverage.

I hope you will address some of all of my feelings next week. Any chance you can do a mid week show. Say, Wednesday night?

Thanks!

Kelly

P.S. I fully support Revision3 should they choose to pursue legal action against “Artist Direct/Media Defenders ” It’s time we fight back!
Gareth

hey Roger and Tom
As one who has followed this election campaign far too much I thought I might help clear some stuff up. First these primaries were held before Super Tuesday Tom and that is the real problem with these states. i think your discussion on the issues was pretty good except you failed to mention that the republican primaries were also brought forward with Romney winning Michigan and McCain winning Florida. The real difference is that the Republcans from the start said that the delegates would count for half unlike the democrats who frankly have screwed two of the most important battle ground states around and frankly shows some of the issues with the Democrat party. Early polls shows McCain leading in Florida by six point s and Michigan is too close to call. (although Romney on the ticket for McCain would certainly help in a state like Michigan)

The real issue for the democrats is that most of the democrat primaries have not been winner takes all like the republican primaries. I feel a little sorry for hillary because her argument is quite correct in that she has one in swing state (Michigan,florida and even Kentucky) and among groups that decide elections: Catholics, hispanics, white women etc.

Obama should be the nominee but if you break it down two of his core constituencies: youth and black voters, you are looking at two of the most unreliable voting blocks. Obamas other problem is that he is really, really popular amongsts democrats but with the way things work in american politics it doesn’t really matter if he wins California by 90 % if he loses both Michigan and Florida. I’m not saying the democrats will lose this election but if Obama is going to win hen needs to be very nice to the clintons and her core constituencies

Sorry if its all over the place but love the show and the sound quality was fine.

Gareth
New Zealand
Gareth

hey Roger and Tom
As one who has followed this election campaign far too much I thought I might help clear some stuff up. First these primaries were held before Super Tuesday Tom and that is the real problem with these states. i think your discussion on the issues was pretty good except you failed to mention that the republican primaries were also brought forward with Romney winning Michigan and McCain winning Florida. The real difference is that the Republcans from the start said that the delegates would count for half unlike the democrats who frankly have screwed two of the most important battle ground states around and frankly shows some of the issues with the Democrat party. Early polls shows McCain leading in Florida by six point s and Michigan is too close to call. (although Romney on the ticket for McCain would certainly help in a state like Michigan)

The real issue for the democrats is that most of the democrat primaries have not been winner takes all like the republican primaries. I feel a little sorry for hillary because her argument is quite correct in that she has one in swing state (Michigan,florida and even Kentucky) and among groups that decide elections: Catholics, hispanics, white women etc.

Obama should be the nominee but if you break it down two of his core constituencies: youth and black voters, you are looking at two of the most unreliable voting blocks. Obamas other problem is that he is really, really popular amongsts democrats but with the way things work in american politics it doesn’t really matter if he wins California by 90 % if he loses both Michigan and Florida. I’m not saying the democrats will lose this election but if Obama is going to win hen needs to be very nice to the clintons and her core constituencies

Sorry if its all over the place but love the show and the sound quality was fine.

Gareth
New Zealand
zefyr

Florida’s and Michigan’s primaries were moved up by their legislatures, not the democratic or republican party.

The democratic candidates agreed to not participate in the FL and MI primaries.

Obama took his name off MI ballot. Hillary didn’t.

At the time of the popular vote (for both states), it was known the delegates wouldn’t be seated at the convention.

Sen. Clinton attended two Florida fundraisers right after South Carolina.
She attended a rally in Miami the night the polls closed in FL. Obama has abided by all the, not bending them once.

Obama has more popular votes (counting all the states regardless of the method used to win delegates). He has more Pledged and Super Delegates.

Its been next to impossible for Hillary to win since February. Now, by intentionally sowing discord, not only are the democrats chances of winning the general election decreased, but if somehow she manages to wrestle the nomination from Obama during the convention, the black population is gonna be enraged, and if she doesn’t shes still played the sexism card disenfranchising female voters. At least for me the Clinton name is now permanently associated with same. Chalk up another win for dirty politics.
zefyr

Florida’s and Michigan’s primaries were moved up by their legislatures, not the democratic or republican party.

The democratic candidates agreed to not participate in the FL and MI primaries.

Obama took his name off MI ballot. Hillary didn’t.

At the time of the popular vote (for both states), it was known the delegates wouldn’t be seated at the convention.

Sen. Clinton attended two Florida fundraisers right after South Carolina.
She attended a rally in Miami the night the polls closed in FL. Obama has abided by all the, not bending them once.

Obama has more popular votes (counting all the states regardless of the method used to win delegates). He has more Pledged and Super Delegates.

Its been next to impossible for Hillary to win since February. Now, by intentionally sowing discord, not only are the democrats chances of winning the general election decreased, but if somehow she manages to wrestle the nomination from Obama during the convention, the black population is gonna be enraged, and if she doesn’t shes still played the sexism card disenfranchising female voters. At least for me the Clinton name is now permanently associated with same. Chalk up another win for dirty politics.
zefyr

^associated with shame
zefyr

^associated with shame
Craig Denniston

I have a question about politics: Does a more-than-two-party setup only work in a parlimentary system (see England, et al.), or could it also work in a republic (see U.S.)?

It’s also a bit disheartening when perfectly capable politicians (see Ralph Nader or Ron Paul) never get much/any coverage by the press (or even on the ballot, in some cases).

Anyway, love the show.

P.S. – re: show – Boring = no, audio = good
P.P.S.- I would also support Rev3 if they brought a suit against MD.
Craig Denniston

I have a question about politics: Does a more-than-two-party setup only work in a parlimentary system (see England, et al.), or could it also work in a republic (see U.S.)?

It’s also a bit disheartening when perfectly capable politicians (see Ralph Nader or Ron Paul) never get much/any coverage by the press (or even on the ballot, in some cases).

Anyway, love the show.

P.S. – re: show – Boring = no, audio = good
P.P.S.- I would also support Rev3 if they brought a suit against MD.
punterjoe

Craig
3rd parties often play a role in US politics… just never as winners. People argue that Ross Perot drained away votes that would have gone to Bush41 & handed the election to Clinton. Many folks still seethe at the idea of Ralph Nader costing Gore a clear victory in 2000. I voted for John Anderson in 1980 knowing he wouldn’t win, but wanting to show support for his platform. Maybe the most contentious election in US history was the 1948 race where the Democratic party split into 3 factions – the progressive (socialist) wing under former VP Henry Wallace, the Jim-Crow old-school “dixiecrats” under Strom Thurmond, and little old Harry Truman left with whatever was in the middle. How that didn’t devolve into chaos, I’ll never understand. btw – I’m not THAT old. I’m just a bit of a history dork.
If history has a recurring theme, it seems to be that nothing lasts forever. Even if the system favors a 2-party system, it doesn’t have to be the same 2 parties we have today.
Tom/Roger… ToRo…. you guys need to hook up with some community college or internet skool & find a way to offer credit like public tv does for watching courses. This is civics 101 …or at least social – and occasionally antisocial – studies :)
punterjoe

Craig
3rd parties often play a role in US politics… just never as winners. People argue that Ross Perot drained away votes that would have gone to Bush41 & handed the election to Clinton. Many folks still seethe at the idea of Ralph Nader costing Gore a clear victory in 2000. I voted for John Anderson in 1980 knowing he wouldn’t win, but wanting to show support for his platform. Maybe the most contentious election in US history was the 1948 race where the Democratic party split into 3 factions – the progressive (socialist) wing under former VP Henry Wallace, the Jim-Crow old-school “dixiecrats” under Strom Thurmond, and little old Harry Truman left with whatever was in the middle. How that didn’t devolve into chaos, I’ll never understand. btw – I’m not THAT old. I’m just a bit of a history dork.
If history has a recurring theme, it seems to be that nothing lasts forever. Even if the system favors a 2-party system, it doesn’t have to be the same 2 parties we have today.
Tom/Roger… ToRo…. you guys need to hook up with some community college or internet skool & find a way to offer credit like public tv does for watching courses. This is civics 101 …or at least social – and occasionally antisocial – studies :)
Matthew

Hi Tom, Roger and et al

As something of an aside here are some thoughts of Professor John Gray about what is the state of the world and the need for realism in political thought.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2008/2257930.htm

I found it really interesting and so I thought I might put it up for review/comment.
Matthew

Hi Tom, Roger and et al

As something of an aside here are some thoughts of Professor John Gray about what is the state of the world and the need for realism in political thought.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/bigideas/stories/2008/2257930.htm

I found it really interesting and so I thought I might put it up for review/comment.
SoCalJess

Punterjoe points to an excellent example of how the Democratic party factionalized in 1948 because it can substantiate to a degree the two (or five, depending on who you talk to) party presidential system the U.S. has today. Given a large national population, the diverse political platforms about, and plurality voting, most people will shift their votes toward a popularized group that they can associate their values with and most folks don’t want to waste their vote on a small time politcal group that will not make waves in and beyond Washington.

Before I forget……GO LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SoCalJess

Punterjoe points to an excellent example of how the Democratic party factionalized in 1948 because it can substantiate to a degree the two (or five, depending on who you talk to) party presidential system the U.S. has today. Given a large national population, the diverse political platforms about, and plurality voting, most people will shift their votes toward a popularized group that they can associate their values with and most folks don’t want to waste their vote on a small time politcal group that will not make waves in and beyond Washington.

Before I forget……GO LAKERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kelly

I’ll do my best to listen to #120 tonight. But for now I just want to make clear that my fist post was no for the purpose of retaliating against what the DNC did on Saturday that has now lead to Obama meeting of exceeding the number of delegates needed to win the nomination. My post was from my viewpoint. Starting with what I expected to happen and what actually happened. From there I was asking what are our options. First to vote Obama. Second not to vote Obama. Third is to stay home or Vote for McCain.

Since Saturdays game playing by the DNC which allowed Obama to win the nomination….. OK, this is where and what I have the problem with. My problem is with the DNC and not Obama himself. My problem isn’t about whether Obama picks Clinton for his running mate or not. My problem now and has been since Saturday when the DNC gave us all the finger by splitting the delegate count in half. This clearly gave Obama the edge and gave Hilary the finger too.

I was a registered independent voter since I was 18. After the 2000 election I re registered as a Democrat in protest of Bush’s Court Win over Al Gore. I am still a registered Democrat for this 2008 Presidential Election. We need somebody to put on back on track. That is not McCain. McCain will be 4 more years of Bush. Hilary could bring back the good economic time most had while Bill was President. Obama, well, Obama has only promise us change. So, all I get from that is this. What we are currently doing today we will not be doing tomorrow. Whether it works or it doesn’t work Obama will change it. Hm, isn’t that a lot like when Bush scrambled all of our Government Agencies? For a couple of years the FBI and the CIA didn’t know who they reported to. UGH! We don’t need more of that. Perhaps Obama meant he was going to un scramble that mess but forgot to spell it out for us. He just lumped it all under CHANGE!

OK, here is how I see it tonight.

#1. I could vote for Obama regardless of VP.

#2. I could vote for Obama with VP Hilary.

#3. I could vote for McCain.

#4. I could vote for any Independent still running.

#5. I could vote for any Non Republican/ Non Democratic candidate.

#6. I could vote for Ron Paul.

#7. I could write in Hilary/Obama.

#8. I could write in UNDECIDED.

#9. I could write in NON OF THE ABOVE.

#10. I could just stay home and forget about it.

Tonight I am in the mindset of either writing in “Ron Paul” or “None of the Above.” Which do you think would be a better way to protest what the DNC did to us on Saturday with their little phony get together? How do we send them a message that we are not happy? When we stay home they might get it. If we write in None of the Above, they might get it. What frying pan over the head moment can you think of that we can us to get the DNC to wake up and see what they have done to us.

Thank you!

Kelly

(Note; when I say we, I’m not talking about us the users of this forum. By we I mean the voters in this country. )
Kelly

I’ll do my best to listen to #120 tonight. But for now I just want to make clear that my fist post was no for the purpose of retaliating against what the DNC did on Saturday that has now lead to Obama meeting of exceeding the number of delegates needed to win the nomination. My post was from my viewpoint. Starting with what I expected to happen and what actually happened. From there I was asking what are our options. First to vote Obama. Second not to vote Obama. Third is to stay home or Vote for McCain.

Since Saturdays game playing by the DNC which allowed Obama to win the nomination….. OK, this is where and what I have the problem with. My problem is with the DNC and not Obama himself. My problem isn’t about whether Obama picks Clinton for his running mate or not. My problem now and has been since Saturday when the DNC gave us all the finger by splitting the delegate count in half. This clearly gave Obama the edge and gave Hilary the finger too.

I was a registered independent voter since I was 18. After the 2000 election I re registered as a Democrat in protest of Bush’s Court Win over Al Gore. I am still a registered Democrat for this 2008 Presidential Election. We need somebody to put on back on track. That is not McCain. McCain will be 4 more years of Bush. Hilary could bring back the good economic time most had while Bill was President. Obama, well, Obama has only promise us change. So, all I get from that is this. What we are currently doing today we will not be doing tomorrow. Whether it works or it doesn’t work Obama will change it. Hm, isn’t that a lot like when Bush scrambled all of our Government Agencies? For a couple of years the FBI and the CIA didn’t know who they reported to. UGH! We don’t need more of that. Perhaps Obama meant he was going to un scramble that mess but forgot to spell it out for us. He just lumped it all under CHANGE!

OK, here is how I see it tonight.

#1. I could vote for Obama regardless of VP.

#2. I could vote for Obama with VP Hilary.

#3. I could vote for McCain.

#4. I could vote for any Independent still running.

#5. I could vote for any Non Republican/ Non Democratic candidate.

#6. I could vote for Ron Paul.

#7. I could write in Hilary/Obama.

#8. I could write in UNDECIDED.

#9. I could write in NON OF THE ABOVE.

#10. I could just stay home and forget about it.

Tonight I am in the mindset of either writing in “Ron Paul” or “None of the Above.” Which do you think would be a better way to protest what the DNC did to us on Saturday with their little phony get together? How do we send them a message that we are not happy? When we stay home they might get it. If we write in None of the Above, they might get it. What frying pan over the head moment can you think of that we can us to get the DNC to wake up and see what they have done to us.

Thank you!

Kelly

(Note; when I say we, I’m not talking about us the users of this forum. By we I mean the voters in this country. )
James Cachine II

Speaking of elections, Tom, I wanted to congratulate you for your performance as Craig Waters, Florida Supreme Court Spokesperson, in HBO’s TV movie, ‘Recount’. The way you declined that bulletproof vest at the end, that was some great acting. Congrats again..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27356809@N02/2551846468/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27356809@N02/2551846952/
http://www.flcourts.org/images/news-recount2.jpg

James
Herndon Virginia
James Cachine II

Speaking of elections, Tom, I wanted to congratulate you for your performance as Craig Waters, Florida Supreme Court Spokesperson, in HBO’s TV movie, ‘Recount’. The way you declined that bulletproof vest at the end, that was some great acting. Congrats again..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/27356809@N02/2551846468/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27356809@N02/2551846952/
http://www.flcourts.org/images/news-recount2.jpg

James
Herndon Virginia
joypog

For what its worth, most commercial environments are air conditioned year round even in nice temperate environments like Berkeley. Its particularly true in retail because you have a bunch of lights on, but even in an office with a bunch people and computers, the internal heat gains are still significant.

As for Barack over Hillary…well I’m quite happy with the final result. I think Obama had to come off as accommodating but not knuckling under Hillary and that’s what they did in the Saturday meeting. In the end it has now become clear that it was a big charade and posturing for both camps. I’m quite sure Obama knew he had enough superdelegates in the bag to declare victory and Clinton just wanted to save face on the way out. Though I must say that arguing for legitimacy of an election with only one candidate on the ballot (one who promised that “it wouldn’t count”) is really quite galling.

But Tom is correct, Obama’s been on McCain for the past couple months anyways, now he just has fewer distractions.
joypog

For what its worth, most commercial environments are air conditioned year round even in nice temperate environments like Berkeley. Its particularly true in retail because you have a bunch of lights on, but even in an office with a bunch people and computers, the internal heat gains are still significant.

As for Barack over Hillary…well I’m quite happy with the final result. I think Obama had to come off as accommodating but not knuckling under Hillary and that’s what they did in the Saturday meeting. In the end it has now become clear that it was a big charade and posturing for both camps. I’m quite sure Obama knew he had enough superdelegates in the bag to declare victory and Clinton just wanted to save face on the way out. Though I must say that arguing for legitimacy of an election with only one candidate on the ballot (one who promised that “it wouldn’t count”) is really quite galling.

But Tom is correct, Obama’s been on McCain for the past couple months anyways, now he just has fewer distractions.
Matthew

I wonder which one of the candidates will allow people to have medical care without sending the whole family into bankruptcy. Its interesting the statistics on the amount that is spent by the US on medical care as a percentage of GDP is much higher than a lot of countries with universal health care.
Matthew

I wonder which one of the candidates will allow people to have medical care without sending the whole family into bankruptcy. Its interesting the statistics on the amount that is spent by the US on medical care as a percentage of GDP is much higher than a lot of countries with universal health care.