• Matthew

    Patrick is silly to some how praise a totalitarian state of China. Just because France can’t do what a government is supposed to do (see Muslim riots in 2005) which is to maintain order doesn’t mean that a normal democracy can’t deal with such lawlessness also.

    There has been 127,000 in 2008 (sourced China Labour Bulletin) from 87,000 in 2005. There is great injustice occurring there with either the stealing of land from peasants (main source of Chinese wealth concentration) to deaths in the work place (inadequately enforced or inadequate OHS laws) to just mass exploitation (e.g. whole villages that were given AIDS by corrupt blood banks that reused infected needles).

    China has a great balancing act with all the various forces acting on it.

    I always find it ironic that people are trying to form trade unions in a “communist” state and of course the state is suppressing them. It just would not do to have people making a mockery of the idea of the “workers paradise”.

  • Matthew

    I meant 127,000 protests and 87,000 protests. Sorry….

    Just a point in regards to France is that there is a party called the National Front which is almost or is fascist in nature. France isn’t that left it just expects the state to fix things.

  • Techpriest

    The discussion of the problems with the two party system was interesting, not least because it showed how diverse US political party’s are, as well as the differences in the “location” of the US political spectrum in relation to others around the world. In that sense (if we are to use the left/right wing analogy), compared to much of Europe and other democratic countrys, the USA’s entire political “spectrum” is shifted towards the right. This can be testified by utilising the now-common “vote matcher” quizzes which aim to roughly judge what party a person would fit into based on their ideology. For example, Those who (in British vote matchers) support the Labour Party or the Liberal Democratic Party normally end up in the “Socialist party of America Class”, whereas those who support the British Conservative party normally end up classed as US Democrats, with extremeley negligble portions classed as US republicans. In this way (from right to left) the political spectrums of the 3 countrys in question could be classed as USA/UK/France.

    While Scott Johnson makes a point that so-called 3rd party’s rarely make a difference, this is only true of the USA in particular, which is relatively different in the sense that it arguably has the most entrenched 2-party system in the democratic western world. Britain is equally strange in that its system is designed for two party’s (the debating chambers themselves are designed for two opposing sides, with official an “Leader of the opposition” and the Prime Minister), it has, through a series of historical & political accidents, ended up with a 3 party system. Originally a system with “Whig” vs “Tory”, this later transitioned (as the party’s became more rigid and had a definite structure, instead of being loose groupings of people who shared roughly the same views) to a system of Liberal VS Conservative. This is a 2 party system, by all counts. However, the rise of the Labour movement and the split of Labour from the Liberal Party (combined with the fall of the Liberal Party in 1918) led to a THREE party system of Labour VS Conservative with the Liberals (now known as the Liberal Democrats, having merged with the Social Democratic Party’s in the 1980′s) as a 3rd party, which (when forced to) tends to side with Labour, as a primarily centre-left party. While the Liberal’s rarely have had much influence in the past 90 years, they do form a sort of “check” on the actions of the other two-partys, breaking ties and normally taking the Moral (rather than the political) high ground. Furthermore, they are expected to be an important factor in the event of a “Hung Parliament” (where, at the next election, neither Labour nor the Conservatives have an overall majority and a coalition government, is formed). So, while the 3rd party does not have much influence, it does a form of sort of moral check (As testified by the fact the Liberals were instrumental in the defeat of the incumbent labour government on the issue of Gurkha settlement, the first time an incumbent government has been defeated in Britain in 30 years). You could speculate that had the Federalist Party of the USA had not collapsed, the USA might have, too, ended up with an accidental 3 party system consisting of the Federal, Democratic & Republican party.

  • Techpriest

    Also, GREAT to hear that Roger knows something of Warhammer 40K! It is perhaps one of the biggest and most developed sci-fi universes. By the Way, the Orks don’t come FROM the warp, but they are very attuned to it. The Orks are in fact a sort of sentient mushroom/spore thing/ Orks release spores, these spores then (in a plant like way) gestate underground until a fully grown ork bursts out to join the hordes in the hope of bloodshed and war (or as they call it, WAAAAAAGH!). The Orks would be very nasty, but they have too much infighting, so can be divided and conquered, if however, they were all to team up, they would probably leave the galaxy broken in a huge great wave of bloodshed. Sci-Fi is fun, is it not ;)

    PS: Thanks for the compliments to the listeners :) It’s nice to know we are appreciated, and that our comments matter.

  • http://twitter.com/EricE51 Eric in Cupertino

    You might want to check out rfa.org for another perspective on Uighur issues.

    I mentioned Uighur in response to a question about discrimination in PRC many episodes back.

    My partner grew up in Beijing and Chengdu. She stated big “fights” between Chengdu people and Tibetans was not unheard of and she saw people killed in the streets.

    :-(

    ps – My baby sitter lived across the alley from Mr Moyer.

    heh.

  • http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com/ Sean O’Hara

    The discussion of how people are forgetting Nixon’s corruption brings up something that bugs me about many American political discussions — people in this country are amazingly ignorant of history. Look at the Iraq War — if you’re against it, you compare it to Vietnam; if you’re for it, you point to World War II. Of all the wars in US history, why those two? They seem chosen more for rhetorical power than actual historical parallels. The American occupation of the Philippines is far more apt — a war started on questionable pretexts for a lofty goal, leading to a quick conquest that’s followed by decades of guerrilla warfare against Muslim insurgents. Or we could look beyond US history at what happened to the French in Algeria.

    But most Americans don’t know a thing about the Spanish-American War, except maybe Teddy Roosevelt and the Rough Riders. Maybe it had something to do with Cuba attacking Maine? And the Algerian War? “French military victories. 404 – file not found. Heh heh.”

  • Techpriest

    @Sean

    Your comment “French military victories. 404- file not found.” does fulfill the stereotype of the French Military being utterly useless and regularly losing battles, however, it would be unfair to suggest the French are always terrible (i don’t know why, but i feel compelled to play the devils advocate for this issue)). The Napoleonic era can be cited as arguably their most recent period of sustained military success. The victories were often complicated & hard to achieve, Austerlitz is one example. However, while Napoleon was a brilliant tactician, he was arguably, completely incompetent as a strategist (example: Invading Russia during the END of good weather and the beginning of winter, further testified by the fact Napoleon marched half a million men into russia, and barely a few thousand out). Not saying you are entirely wrong, but having started reading a rather brilliant one-volume book on Napoleonic era history (“War of Wars”) i felt somehow compelled to denounce the myth that the french are ALWAYS bad in war.

  • Matthew

    I would like to say about the French that they had a lot of good wars that they won, one notable one being the one in 1066. As some cheeky Frenchmen said English is a dialect of french.

    @ Sean in regards to people having a distorted view of history is the one that people draw from Gandhi that non violence will defeat oppressive regimes. I always point out to people that if Gandhi had pulled that type of behaviour with the Bolsheviks or the Imperial Japanese or even any warlord in Africa now the best that he and all of his followers could hope for would be a quick death.

    The Bolsheviks would have sent him and his followers (all thousands of them) to the gulags or if it was the Imperial Japanese they would have just killed them all. The warlords would have raped all the women and then chopped off the limbs of all of them after killing Gandhi.

    The only reason why Gandhi was able to get away with it and this is the same for Martin Luther King Jr. was that the British and the US citizens saw themselves as people that did not do the type of things any totalitarian state would do. Personally nowadays the people just don’t want to see it on the TV. As long as its not on the TV I don’t think that the majority cares as we don’t have the time to give anything other than work, domestic life, family that much attention.

  • http://www.irodrigo.com/ Rodrigo

    As a Brazilian I think I should comment on something Roger said about Brazil because otherwise nobody will :P

    Brasilia is not in the Amazon at all, in fact Brasilia is miles and miles away from the jungle. It’s located on the central area of Brazil, the amazon jungle it’s located on the northwest part.

    The city was constructed there basically because all our major cities are really close to the coast and with the capital being in the middle of the country this could stimulate the economy on that region. Some say it was also to keep the capital of the country far from the coast and far possible naval invasions (the idea of building the city was originally conceived in the early 1800s).

    Not trying to show that I’m smarter than anyone else, just explaining a little bit more about my homeland ;)

  • Oliver

    @Matthew

    The Normans who conquered England weren’t French: they adopted French as their language and France as their temporary home, but they were politically independent and ethnically separate from the Franks. The term ‘Norman’ derives from a contraction of ‘Northmen’ or ‘Norseman’ – they were descendants of Vikings.

  • John Mccanson

    Long Time Listener, First Time commenter here.

    Just a thought, but your mention of the likes of Matthew & Techpriest (And Vance, and Sean and others) on the episode sparked an idea. Why not have them on the show? They seem pretty attuned to your discussions, and you seem to like what they write, so i don’t see in the slightest what could go wrong. Nothing wrong with widening the debate :)

    Its true to say that, quite wrongly, Nixon’s reputation has mellowed over the years. Studying Cold War History in the UK (As part of the national history unit “Superpower relations”) textbooks mainly refer to Nixons use of detente and the ending of the Vietnam war, watergate is scarcely mentioned, although the book my school uses does state the process through which a president may be impeached, and is clear to say that had nixon not been resigned, there was a high probability of him being impeached.

    Anywhere, theres my 2 pence/3.3 Cents.

  • John Mccanson

    Ok, Wierd issue trying to post up the comments, 2nd attempt here.

    Long Time Listener, First Time commenter here.

    Just a thought, but your mention of the likes of Matthew & Techpriest (And Vance, and Sean and others) on the episode sparked an idea. Why not have them on the show? They seem pretty attuned to your discussions, and you seem to like what they write, so i don’t see in the slightest what could go wrong. Nothing wrong with widening the debate :)

    Its true to say that, quite wrongly, Nixon’s reputation has mellowed over the years. Studying Cold War History in the UK (As part of the national history unit “Superpower relations”) textbooks mainly refer to Nixons use of detente and the ending of the Vietnam war, watergate is scarcely mentioned, although the book my school uses does state the process through which a president may be impeached, and is clear to say that had nixon not been resigned, there was a high probability of him being impeached.

    Anywhere, theres my 2 pence/3.3 Cents.

  • Matthew

    @Oliver

    That might be true that they were descended from Vikings but they were a part of the kingdom of France. That been the case they were Frenchmen…

  • http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com/ Sean O’Hara

    @Techpriest: “Your comment “French military victories. 404- file not found.” does fulfill the stereotype of the French Military being utterly useless and regularly losing battles, however, it would be unfair to suggest the French are always terrible”

    Note that I put that part in quotes, to imply that that’s how a typical American would respond if asked what lessons can be drawn from the French defeat in Algeria, not that I myself think that.

  • Oliver

    @Matthew

    The Duchy of Normandy was politically independent from the French crown until 1204, when it was conquered by Phillip II.

  • Techpriest

    Pre-napoleonic Europe is very interesting. Shockingly different to the modern map of europe-the low countries were under Austria, as was most of northern Italy, Prussia was the most powerful german state but Germany has not yet been unified.

  • theblade

    One small I should address mentioned in this podcast.

    As far as I remember from my college political science classes, Congressional representatives of US territories as well as DC are not quite as powerless as Tom suggested. It is true that they do not cast votes on the floor of Congress (although I believe there are some exceptions to that rule as well) so they are not among the 435 who makes the final decisions.

    They do have full voting privileges on their committees where they are effectively treated as a regular Congressmen. Although we have not seen any high-profile committee-related issues lately, being able to vote on a committee is an important power.

  • Matthew

    @ Olivier

    If you say so, I was under the impression that Normandy was under France at the time. Which lead to the issues surrounding a Noble of France which swears fidelity to the French king while still been King of England.

    Anyway I wanted to raise 2 points

    The ABC had a good series on The story of Gold Standard
    http://www.abc.net.au/rn/rearvision/stories/2009/2620428.htm
    Showed one of the great contributing reasons why the Depression became the Great Depression and worldwide is because of the every currency was tied to the gold and so no one was able to vary their interest as the gold was a de facto world currency.

    The other was something that came up when I was commenting on BOL Forum and that is there the commentors was equating legal with good and proper behavior. It has if something was legal when it was fine that people do it. I was thinking that this is the same thinking that got the GFC to occur where if I engage in legal behavior then its moral. One point that isn’t really known about CDOs is that the amount of pages that is required to be read to understand what is occurring with even the most simple one is One Billion Pages of legal documents. Even if there was full disclosure as per the laws there is no way anyone would know whats in them. That been the case it wasn’t moral but as it was legal a lot of people see it as morally fine.

  • Matthew

    @ Olivier

    If you say so, I was under the impression that Normandy was under France at the time. Which lead to the issues surrounding a Noble of France which swears fidelity to the French king while still been King of England.

    Anyway I wanted to raise 2 points

    The ABC had a good series on The story of Gold Standard
    http://www.abc.net.au/rn/rearvision/stories/2009/2620428.htm
    Showed one of the great contributing reasons why the Depression became the Great Depression and worldwide is because of the every currency was tied to the gold and so no one was able to vary their interest as the gold was a de facto world currency.

    The other was something that came up when I was commenting on BOL Forum and that is there the commentors was equating legal with good and proper behavior. It has if something was legal when it was fine that people do it. I was thinking that this is the same thinking that got the GFC to occur where if I engage in legal behavior then its moral. One point that isn’t really known about CDOs is that the amount of pages that is required to be read to understand what is occurring with even the most simple one is One Billion Pages of legal documents. Even if there was full disclosure as per the laws there is no way anyone would know whats in them. That been the case it wasn’t moral but as it was legal a lot of people see it as morally fine.

  • http://patrickbeja.com/ Patrick

    Wow… So sorry I didn’t check to comments section until now, I am indeed being taken to task here! Alright, in no particular order:

    - French Military Vitocries: 404 – file not found.
    Excellent! It made me laugh.
    So let me reply in fashion: Kids, we have about 1500 years of history behind us. Napoleon is one example, but there are many more. I suggest you children come back to the table when you are out of puberty.
    (Keep in mind I’m saying “we” as if I am somehow entitled to be inheriting French history, when I actually only became French around the age of 7 or 8. I am usually quick to point out to my US bashing compatriots that you guys got us out of it in the two world wars, but in this case I feel very compelled to defend my country’s “honor” for some reason.)

    - English is a French dialect.
    Ok I’m being in my previous comment; Matthew does point out that we do have a history at one point. But about this, it’s more that the English royal family came from French nobility, and that the French language was the language of the court for the longest time. English was considered dirty and “the people’s language” until fairly recently. Damn right! Hehe.
    This French decent of the English crown led to the never ending wars between the two countries, each claiming sovereignship over the other. A large part of France was actually English for a while. Joan of Arc came at a time when the Francs were on the brink of destruction for example…

    - China.
    People… I came on the show saying that you were one of the most intelligent audiences on the internet; surely that includes understanding irony and cold scientific analysis!
    I’m not a complete idiot: I’m not saying “woohoo, totalitarian communism is swell, let’s all move that way!”, I’m just saying that as uprisings go, repressing them in blood surely puts an end to them fairly fast. Until it’s not anymore and you have a revolution on your hands. But that’s another story. To sum things up: in our countries, the Uyghur / Han issue would have gone on for a lot longer than it did there. And obviously, having a gun pointed to your head while being ordered to be friends with the other guy can be considered as a bad thing.
    Matthew mentions what he calls the “muslim riots” of 2005. They were not islamic in nature, but rather suburbian. I’d compare them to the LA riots I guess? And, oh right, look how great you did there… Well, in both cases, had we been under communist China’s rule, the riots would have probably ended pretty fast. With tanks in the streets and lots of imprisonment and death, but still.
    My point is that I’m just stating a cold hard fact: killing people usually makes them think twice about going after you. Doesn’t mean I’m advocating killing people.

    - The French National Front.
    Matthew again talks about the “Front National”, which is indeed an issue here. But that’s what happens when you have more than two parties make up your political spectrum: you also get the crazy guys. And they are not fascists; they are extremists, but more nationalist than anything else. There are similar parties in several countries in Europe.

    I hope this clears up some of my opinions. Always a pleasure read EMW’s comments!